Welcome
We started this podcast with open hearts and warm coffee.
This time, we’re asking a big question: is art always about creation, or is destruction actually an important key part of the creative process?
From blank pages to shredded paintings, from silence that turns into music to cocoons that break open into butterflies — creation and destruction are tangled together.
A creamy sip of coffee.
Speckoi the cat licking her tail.
And a quote from Richard Bach that reminds us: “What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly.”
In Episode 3: Destruction in Art, we explore creation versus destruction in the artist’s process, Richard Bach’s butterflies and becoming, John Cage’s silence, comedy as leap and landing, The Beatles and Bowie reinventing themselves, Frank Zappa on framing art, Banksy shredding a masterpiece, and how travel and meditation both invite us to let go of the old so that imagination has space to grow.
It’s curious and challenging, silly and sincere.
Welcome
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True Fans and AI Web Crawlers we proudly present… The Transcript
[00:00:00] The Musician: Hey everybody.
[00:00:08] The Writer: I’m The Writer
[00:00:09] The Musician: and I’m The Musician. Welcome to another podcast. Could be our third who’s keeping track.
[00:00:18] The Writer: Yeah, only Speckoi she’s on my lap. She’s licking herself.
[00:00:26] The Writer: Oh,
[00:00:27] The Writer: that’s my cat.
[00:00:32] The Musician: She’s actually licking coffee off her tail.
[00:00:35] The Writer: Oh yeah.
[00:00:35] The Musician: So, uh, to that I would say cheers.
[00:00:38] The Writer: Cheers.
[00:00:44] The Musician: And if you have coffee, cheers to you as well.
[00:00:48] The Writer: Yum. That sip was delicious.
[00:00:51] The Musician: Mmmm. Creamy.
[00:00:52] The Writer: Yeah. So creamy.
[00:00:58] The Musician: So one thing we love to talk about [00:01:00] is art.
[00:01:01] The Writer: We love it. This is our jam
[00:01:05] The Musician: and best to just be doing art. Talking about art seems meaningless, but somehow,
[00:01:13] The Musician: uh, the words can give you some direction, sometimes, or, or help you.
[00:01:20] The Writer: Inspire you
[00:01:21] The Musician: inspire, uh,
[00:01:22] The Writer: yeah.
[00:01:22] The Musician: Some clarity, focus. You can help direct. There’s great books we’ll probably recommend along the way. Things like, uh, Steal Like An Artist or a book called Art and Fear.
[00:01:33] The Writer: Oh, they’re so good. I love those books.
[00:01:35] The Musician: Or something like the, um, what is that book that she takes you along the journey and makes you do the writing pages and there’s, it’s a whole,
[00:01:45] The Writer: The Artist’s Way.
[00:01:46] The Musician: The Artist’s Way
[00:01:46] The Writer: by Julia Cameron. That one’s great. Yeah.
[00:01:49] The Musician: That’s a great book. So yeah, get inspired.
[00:01:53] The Writer: Yeah. And then make art and share it with us.
[00:01:57] The Musician: Mm-hmm. [00:02:00] Well, art, most people would say is creation, creative, a creative effort? You’re creating something.
[00:02:13] The Writer: Definitely. It’s definitely. A space of blank nothingness.
[00:02:20] The Musician: That’s an easy one.
[00:02:21] The Writer: And then we create something.
[00:02:23] The Musician: I think everyone, you say art is creation. Everybody go, yes,
[00:02:27] The Writer: yes.
[00:02:28] The Musician: But if I said that art was destructive,
[00:02:34] The Writer: Boom,
[00:02:37] The Musician: like art is kind of violent and art is destroying, there’s a violence or a destruction to art. Yeah, people wouldn’t necessarily agree.
[00:02:47] The Writer: Yeah.
[00:02:47] The Musician: They might think that that’s not art. If you’re destroying things, if there’s a destructive quality of violence to the art, like might rub people the wrong way. They think it’s creative and beautiful and, and [00:03:00]
[00:03:01] The Writer: what is the Indian God Vishnu that is the God of destruction.
[00:03:05] The Writer: Right. I’d have to look it all up, but there is a God of
[00:03:11] The Musician: of course,
[00:03:12] The Writer: creation destruction.
[00:03:13] The Musician: So insert your own God of destruction.
[00:03:15] The Writer: Yeah.
[00:03:15] The Musician: Whoever your God of destruction is.
[00:03:19] The Writer: It’s all part of it,
[00:03:22] The Musician: but there is destruction in art. You take a blank piece of paper or a blank canvas and destroy it with your writing.
[00:03:36] The Musician: You take the canvas and, and with each stroke, if you put another stroke on top of that, you’re destroying the first stroke. Like you can even like, uh, fix mistakes. Like you can put something on a piece of art, not like it, and just destroy it by doing over, but you’re actually creating your vision, your beauty.
[00:03:58] The Writer: What would be another word [00:04:00] besides destroy ’cause destroy.
[00:04:04] The Musician: I mean,
[00:04:04] The Writer: destroy sounds or maybe that’s just me.
[00:04:06] The Musician: See, I’ve even rubbed you the wrong way. Yeah. And it even doesn’t
[00:04:09] The Musician: sit well with you
[00:04:10] The Writer: because destroy sounds like something’s being taken away and really, like, forever, like destroy it
[00:04:18] The Musician: is, that’s the, the, the butterfly, the, the butterfly destroys the cocoon and destroys the, the chrysalis and destroys the, the, the,
[00:04:28] The Writer: like.
[00:04:28] The Writer: It’s no longer pretty and perfect and beautiful. But then it becomes something beautiful
[00:04:35] The Musician: that’s, um,
[00:04:36] The Musician: I’d almost have to grab the book
[00:04:37] The Writer: Emerges and Flies and just Becomes itself
[00:04:41] The Musician: illusions by Richard Bach and he states that, um, oh my gosh. I’d have to grab it. I’d actually have to grab it. If you could talk
[00:04:51] The Writer: Yeah, I’ll talk about stuff.
[00:04:53] The Writer: Do
[00:04:53] The Musician: you talk like I would, I would grab it, but um.
[00:04:57] The Writer: We can even edit just
[00:04:59] The Musician: it’s about the [00:05:00] butterfly. Oh yeah. Just fast
[00:05:01] The Musician: forward to where I actually say the meaningful quote.
[00:05:09] The Writer: I just know that I love his book called Jonathan Livingston Siegel.
[00:05:14] The Musician: Oh, that’s, yeah. That’s wonderful
[00:05:18] The Writer: how a bird went away from the flock. To go follow his dream of flying the highest he could fly and the fastest he could fly.
[00:05:28] The Musician: I’m glad you, I, I loved Illusions. I didn’t know about that book and you turned me onto it and I read it.
[00:05:33] The Writer: I love turning you on.
[00:05:34] The Musician: Alright, uh, cheers.
[00:05:38] The Writer: Cheers.
[00:05:48] The Musician: The quote by Richard Bach. What the Caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly.
[00:05:57] The Writer: Damn. [00:06:00] Wow.
[00:06:01] The Musician: So it is the end, end of something. You’ve ended that blank canvas. You’ve ended the silence with your music. You’ve,
[00:06:10] The Writer: that word feels more in alignment than destroy.
[00:06:15] The Musician: I don’t think there’s.
[00:06:15] The Musician: Yeah. Too much different. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s just probably two different words for the same thing.
[00:06:20] The Writer: Yeah.
[00:06:22] The Musician: Calling it, um, a lovely surprise from your bottom instead of poop.
[00:06:28] The Writer: A lovely, it’s a lovely surprise. Surprise.
[00:06:35] The Musician: But speaking of which, then you don’t always have to. Uh, some artists have proved that you don’t always have to end or destroy to create the art.
[00:06:44] The Musician: Um, John Cage did a piece that is three minutes and 33 seconds of silence, and that is the piece that is the music is an empty space.
[00:06:59] The Writer: Mm. [00:07:00] I love that. It is, that is
[00:07:05] The Musician: and for continuity. I keep talking about nothing and something and everything, so nothing ends the moment you put something in the nothing.
[00:07:22] The Writer: Mm, yes.
[00:07:23]
[00:07:23] The Musician: Once you have something, you can’t have nothing. You have something and you have nothing. We talk about inspiration for the artist. The inspiration is the nothing, a blank wall to a graffiti artist is everything. And, and the blank page to the writer and, and
[00:07:40] The Writer: Oh yeah.
[00:07:40] The Musician: Silence to a composer. They hear the music in their head and they have to get it out.
[00:07:44] The Musician: You, it’s inspiration to have that. You wouldn’t be inspired, although some are. To by the
[00:07:51] The Writer: by the emptiness
[00:07:53] The Musician: to have done No. A completed painting. You wouldn’t be inspired to go paint on it. You take a page and wanna write on another writer’s [00:08:00] writing, or some people I guess do.
[00:08:02] The Writer: Yeah, no, I’m inspired by the blink empty.
[00:08:07] The Musician: It’s an invitation.
[00:08:08] The Writer: It is.
[00:08:09] The Musician: There’s an invitation there. There really
[00:08:11] The Writer: is. Have you ever had those times in your life where you wanted to, like what you’re saying. You know, destroy or end, you know, so much in your life. In order to build again,
[00:08:29] The Musician: you have to,
[00:08:30] The Writer: like, I was thinking of like the time when I was 20 years old and I literally gave almost everything away to move somewhere and build a new life for myself and.
[00:08:47] The Writer: Yeah, I barely kept anything. Literally, I was like, everything I just gave away and it felt really good to just have nothing, just have myself to [00:09:00] open to whatever new was coming for me.
[00:09:06] The Musician: It’s like hoarders, they can’t move on in their life and they hoard and keep everything. Nothing is ever.
[00:09:16] The Writer: Oh my God, that would be terrifying.
[00:09:18] The Musician: Nothing.
[00:09:19] The Writer: That would be terrifying. ’cause I think I psychically like feel things that, like when I have too much stuff in my house, I can feel my brain like, like becoming claustrophobic and like shrinking.
[00:09:34] The Musician: So they can’t create a new life. Uh, you letting go of everything. Not really everything. There’s some things you keep. But in essence, those things that you keep drag your old life into the new life.
[00:09:50] The Writer: Yeah.
[00:09:53] The Musician: And maybe artists sticking to their ideal of their first album, [00:10:00] drag people drag their career with this idea that they can’t change, they can’t let go of any of their.
[00:10:10] The Musician: Past or, or what they’ve done.
[00:10:13] The Writer: That’s so much pressure for people to live up to something from the past instead of just, you know, kinda like we’re always having those cocoons you were talking about all through life and breaking through to emerge from who you are now versus who you were in the past.
[00:10:31] The Writer: ’cause we are always changing.
[00:10:33] The Musician: Yes. How the Beatles, you know, took radical diversions and changes and became something bigger than they ever could have been if they kept doing the same. I wanna hold your hand. Fifties style sixties. Someone like Radiohead, if they kept their first album, they would never be as huge as they are, but they’ve been experimental and, and [00:11:00] growing.
[00:11:02] The Writer: I think that journey is fascinating for people.
[00:11:04] The Musician: Oh yeah.
[00:11:05] The Writer: To see the artists just follow their own creative impulse and trust it and flow with it.
[00:11:12] The Musician: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:14] The Writer: It’s almost like the people that are listening or watching or reading or whatever it be, can feel that trust that even the artist had in themselves.
[00:11:25] The Writer: And they trust, you know, they, they become a fan and they follow them and like really get excited for the next thing.
[00:11:33] The Musician: Right? Like people trusted somebody like Andy Warhol or
[00:11:37] The Writer: Yes.
[00:11:38] The Musician: Or whoever. Yeah. If you think about Prince or David Bowie, big, big artists that have had a lot of different transitions and changes and kept going and growing as an artist, as people that would just.
[00:11:52] The Musician: Digested by anything and, and be a part of, wanna be a part of any of the movement. [00:12:00]
[00:12:01] The Writer: Gary Shandling, we saw that documentary on him. A comedian, the
[00:12:06] The Musician: Zen of Gary Shandling. Watch it. Oh my God. So good.
[00:12:09] The Writer: That was so cool to see him. A change in his life. And you know, those times in his life when he literally ended like this part of his career
[00:12:21] The Musician: Oh yeah.
[00:12:22] The Writer: That he was even successful in, he was like, Nope, I’m feeling something new. Come in and I need to do this. And he did it.
[00:12:30] The Musician: He would’ve been a writer probably his whole life, just writing comedy if he hadn’t taken the leap to doing standup. And getting his shot on the Tonight Show or, uh, Merv Griffin or you know, whatever shows.
[00:12:49] The Musician: And even then, this is in the Larry Sanders show and sort of a thing that happens where [00:13:00] people used to get their big breaks on the Tonight Show or the Ed Sullivan or that would be their big break. So a comedian can’t wait to do their tight five minute set on one of those shows and get out to millions of people and really start their career there.
[00:13:14] The Musician: That then getting that break and getting that start honoring that person they would then be reluctant to do other people’s shows, the competition.
[00:13:26] The Writer: Really? Yeah. So they would
[00:13:28] The Musician: like stick to the Tonight Show and just do that and not do the other shows. But it would hurt their career. But then they’d have to be in growth to keep moving forward and keep doing new things.
[00:13:38] The Writer: Yeah. Take those leaps.
[00:13:38] The Musician: And take leaps.
[00:13:43] The Musician: And from him to go from writing TV shows to standup comedy. Years and years of standup comedy and then to go to his own television shows, the Its Gary Haning show, which was groundbreaking, probably created what would become The Office [00:14:00] or shows like that because it was just so different.
[00:14:03] The Writer: That’s so true.
[00:14:04] The Writer: And yeah,
[00:14:06] The Musician: Larry Sanders show, which, uh, is one of my favorite things that like ever happened on television, one of the funniest shows I’ve ever seen. It was so brilliant to, to look at a talk show from behind the scenes and see what happens, what you’re not supposed to see, what happens behind the curtain.
[00:14:25] The Writer: You made me think just now when you were saying all that about taking the leap in our art or in life or in anything and everything,
[00:14:39] The Writer: that when we take the leap. And we’re ending or destroying something even and taking the leap, that would be our fear, right? Oh, yes. That we’re ending and destroying some fear inside of ourselves, moving through it.
[00:14:58] The Musician: Yes. [00:15:00] That’s, uh, Jerry Seinfeld an interview with Jerry Seinfeld. He, he said that the, the really good comedy, the really good comedians.
[00:15:10] The Musician: Your setup for a joke is a leap of faith and the punchline is the landing and there’s timing in between your jump and your landing and some stretch that leap out and and stretch the leap so that when the punchline lands, it has more impact and some leap and land fast to sort of surprise you ’cause there’s no time in between.
[00:15:34] The Musician: The most important thing in comedy, do you know what the most important thing in comedy is?
[00:15:40] The Writer: Timing.
[00:15:41] The Musician: Yes. You couldn’t even let me land the, you,
[00:15:45] The Writer: you stole the
[00:15:45] The Musician: punchline from me.
[00:15:47] The Writer: Oh, what is it?
[00:15:49] The Musician: Well, most people don’t say the, the punchline. I say like, what is the most important thing in comedy? And you, you try to say, I don’t know.
[00:15:57] The Musician: And while you’re saying, I don’t know, I interrupt you with timing.
[00:15:59] The Writer: [00:16:00] Oh,
[00:16:02] The Writer: I was thinking like you were gonna say something like, it’s like sex with edging. So when you’re taking, when you’re extending the timing, I No, completely. It’s like edging.
[00:16:16] The Musician: I’ve now completely forgot what we were talking about.
[00:16:21] The Musician: Let’s just talk about sex and play some Salt and Pepper
[00:16:28] The Writer: you know? ’cause you gotta, like, some people try to do it really fast, you know, like you were talking about. So here we go. Your comedy
[00:16:36] The Musician: now. We’ll do, now we’ll do it perfectly. Ready?
[00:16:38] The Writer: Okay,
[00:16:38] The Musician: so what’s the most important thing in comedy? Timing.
[00:16:42] The Writer: Speckoi,
[00:16:46] The Musician: you’re supposed to say, I don’t know. I’ll, I’ll feed you the lines. Yeah,
[00:16:59] The Writer: [00:17:00] cheers.
[00:17:00] The Musician: You’re even better than the perfect straight person for a joke. Like there’s you one joker and the one straight person. Yeah, but even some of the best straight people are so incredible because they’re so unpredictable.
[00:17:14] The Writer: Yeah.
[00:17:14] The Musician: Here again, Larry Sanders show, Hank, his sidekick was, he was kinda cringey, so he would cringe, but Larry would always defend, he’s a beautiful, beautiful person because he’s so unpredictable.
[00:17:29] The Musician: It’s like he’s a gift.
[00:17:31] The Writer: Oh, I love that. I love the unpredictability. Like, ’cause it’s so like present, like in the moment,
[00:17:38] The Musician: Hey, now
[00:17:38] The Writer: you know. Is that what Hank said?
[00:17:43] The Musician: Yeah. That’s an inside joke.
[00:17:44] The Musician: Hey, now
[00:17:48] The Writer: so back to like what we were talking about with
[00:17:53] The Musician: Sex
[00:17:54] The Writer: destruction. Oh,
[00:17:55] The Musician: I’m kidding. The
[00:17:57] The Musician: kid. I kid destruction.
[00:17:59] The Writer: [00:18:00] Timing.
[00:18:04] The Musician: Cheers.
[00:18:06] The Writer: Cheers.
[00:18:06] The Musician: You’re a gift.
[00:18:11] The Writer: Mm. People.
[00:18:17] The Musician: Well Destruction or ending? People think that, uh, art is such a creative endeavor and don’t realize some of the. Other side of it, which everything has the, everything has another side. Like there’s a duality. Yeah. Where light has dark and happiness has sadness and both exist at the same time.
[00:18:40] The Musician: And to ignore one can have such an effect on the other one, like almost negated it like happy life with no sadness at all would theoretically have less happiness in it than a life [00:19:00] that has both immense sadness and immense happiness. And the immense happiness is only built upon that immense sadness because
[00:19:08] The Writer: awareness of the sadness,
[00:19:09] The Musician: because you have to have comparison.
[00:19:12] The Musician: If the lowest moment in your life is like still pretty amazing and wonderful and beautiful, you know, like then that’s your lowest moment. Your highest moment can’t be that high. There’s nowhere to go. How they say, like once you hit rock bottom, there’s a beauty because there’s nowhere to go but up. You letting go of everything in your life, there’s nowhere to go, but create a new life because you, but
[00:19:40] The Writer: create, and it feels like everything’s been destroyed when you’re at that bottom, like completely ended.
[00:19:48] The Musician: And they’re, they, they need, and the
[00:19:50] The Writer: power is in the creating,
[00:19:53] The Musician: right? They need each other
[00:19:54] The Writer: from that space. It needs, that space, needs it in order to move [00:20:00] forward. It gives to it. It’s very generous actually.
[00:20:05] The Musician: Yeah.
[00:20:07] The Writer: It doesn’t feel like it in the moment, but it is. There’s something really generous in that space when you tap into it.
[00:20:16] The Writer: And that’s in life and in art too. The like, if something ends in our life and a new beginning happens, when I think of that in an artistic sense, there feels like, it feels like the imagination, you know? That’s a world too.
[00:20:35] The Musician: Mm-hmm. Hard to imagine something new with, with all the old stuff in the way.
[00:20:42] The Writer: So much energy.
[00:20:44] The Writer: So much energy to move through and sometimes it’s so sticky and you’re just like,
[00:20:49] The Musician: see, maybe that’s even at the energy that, um, vibration and energy that that clutters, like you said about the imagination. How can you imagine, [00:21:00] you know, a new piece, piece of art on the wall when the old one is still there?
[00:21:06] The Musician: So maybe just taking the old piece down. Would allow the imagination to
[00:21:12] The Writer: be free.
[00:21:13] The Musician: Have that, have that space and freedom to, to actually imagine the new piece of art,
[00:21:19] The Writer: something new. That is so beautiful. I feel that. I feel that so strongly. It makes me think of traveling. And when you set off on that adventure, you just feel so open and free, like you can do anything.
[00:21:43] The Writer: And it’s good for the imagination. It’s good for your sense of adventure, for connection.
[00:21:53] The Musician: It expands like your map of the world. If you never leave your [00:22:00] hometown, it’s just tiny little thing and every travel, your map grows larger.
[00:22:06] The Writer: I wanna go traveling and
[00:22:07] The Musician: your wealth of experience and the people you encounter.
[00:22:14] The Musician: I mean the, you know, the more you travel the world, you would touch so much. That internal map, if we call it, or that internal space. It, it becomes broad and wide and and depth, and there’s so much more. It’s like you break down walls inside yourself and, and this bigger space inside of you can imagine more because you’ve seen so much.
[00:22:40] The Musician: You can imagine more, even more places that you can travel. You can imagine more people that you can touch and more foods and more art, more everything. There’s more, there’s theoretically infinite, but
[00:22:53] The Writer: yes. So much. Yes.
[00:22:57] The Musician: That’s the everything.[00:23:00]
[00:23:03] The Writer: It’s another comfortable silence with you. My amore.
[00:23:06] The Musician: Comfortable. Yeah. You wanna lay down?
[00:23:10] The Writer: Yeah.
[00:23:11] The Musician: And make snow angels in the silence.
[00:23:19] The Musician: A bed of silence they call it. That’s, uh, in radio.
[00:23:23] The Writer: A bed of silence
[00:23:25] The Musician: or they, that they put down a, a, like a music track as a bed, A music bed instead of a music silence. I mean a bed of silence. Oh yeah. A bed of music versus a bed of silence.
[00:23:38] The Writer: I’m confused now. I’m just kidding.
[00:23:42] The Musician: And radio, they would, they would ask you, you know, do you want.
[00:23:46] The Musician: Like a bed of silence or do you want a music bed? They’re like, oh, I put some music on, and they would put a little music in the background and talk over it. Silence is supposed to be like a death in radio, like [00:24:00] radio announcers. Why? They never stop talking and they can just gush and they go, oh, everybody, it’s 10 40 in hour and the weather is pretty clear and the next song I’m gonna play is this.
[00:24:08] The Musician: And they just keep talking. They never stop.
[00:24:11] The Writer: That is so like unnerving because like it’s like for a moment they’ve done the studies just relax.
[00:24:21] The Musician: But
[00:24:22] The Writer: is that people’s brains and their it’s people, ADHD, and ADD, and they always need to be having something,
[00:24:30] The Musician: five seconds of silence and you’re like, oh, I guess that show’s over and you just turn to the next station and they can’t do that.
[00:24:34] The Musician: They have advertisers. They need to keep you like on the hook. They have to keep you like,
[00:24:40] The Writer: but being in a bed feels so good. Even a bed of silence,
[00:24:49] The Musician: apparently not in radio, and apparently people are not comfortable.
[00:24:53] The Writer: That’s like a snuggle. Silences can be a snuggle,
[00:24:56] The Musician: but most people refer to it as uncomfortable silence versus comfortable [00:25:00] silence.
[00:25:00] The Writer: See, we have to like snuggle ourselves in the silence when you’re like a person, you know, is so needing to grab something outside of themselves with their attention, you know? But then when silence comes, maybe it’s good to just say, okay, I get to snuggle myself in this moment. Silence.
[00:25:22] The Musician: That’s meditation.
[00:25:23] The Musician: You have to practice that. Turning off of the mind, the silence. It’s so uncomfortable for most people.
[00:25:31] The Writer: Yeah.
[00:25:32] The Musician: They ask like, what do I do during meditation? What do I think about? Nothing really?
[00:25:37] The Writer: I get it though. What’s that like? I feel that even in myself, like at times, at times, I love it. Other times it’s more uncomfortable.
[00:25:46] The Writer: I think I’m still trying to find my way through it. It seems to all have information for me. Silence feels really loud to me. Like I get to decode, you know, vibrations of [00:26:00] myself, like feelings or thoughts.
[00:26:04] The Musician: There’s,
[00:26:04] The Writer: you know, like it’s all information and I, I’m actually fascinated by it, but I’m not always comfortable with it, but I’m fascinated
[00:26:12] The Musician: a beyond even whether or not you think you’re comfortable or uncomfortable with silence, humans aren’t really built for it.
[00:26:20] The Musician: There is a room that is the most soundproof room in the world, but no human can spend more than an hour in that room without having like severe mental trauma. Like you can go completely nuts.
[00:26:39] The Writer: We talked about this in our first episode. That room.
[00:26:46] The Musician: And then we didn’t talk for 40 minutes and went nuts,
[00:26:50] The Writer: actually.
[00:26:51] The Writer: So I wanna hear from the listeners. Feel free to write in and let us know. How would you feel if we [00:27:00] said, we started our intro with the podcast for one episode and said, Hey everybody, I’m the writer, I’m the musician, you know, . . And then we had silence for 40 minutes or 20 minutes even.
[00:27:15] The Writer: Would you like that? Would you welcome it? Would you invite it?
[00:27:18] The Musician: Well, they would turn it off. They’ll, studies have shown, even though it would give you the space to create your own podcast, you would talk over and take, you know, take the podcast, and each person would have an individual experience. It’d be very unique.
[00:27:34] The Musician: Nobody would’ve the same.
[00:27:37] The Writer: That sounds cool.
[00:27:45] The Musician: We’ll have to research because there is the, you know, John Cage did silence. Um, there was a band that, actually, I forget which band, A punk band that in tribute to John [00:28:00] Cage, or, you know, at least in steel, like an artist in the, in the spirit of steel, like an artist did 1 minute and 11 seconds of silence to compliment his 3 minutes and 33 seconds of silence.
[00:28:14] The Musician: But then the John Cage Foundation, those people went and sued that band and won because John Cage already had the copyright on a song that is silent. What? So nobody can now release. Silence as an art form because John Cage has it trademarked, or that’s,
[00:28:35] The Writer: how would you steal like an artist for that signature piece or silence?
[00:28:39] The Musician: I don’t even know. You can’t, you theoretically can’t. He, he really did that. Like he nailed it. Nailed it. But then other artists, you know, I, I had a, a hour long or more discussion, uh, read, Argument with somebody in a bar [00:29:00] looking at a frame on the wall. And they said, that’s stupid. And I said, no, that’s art.
[00:29:05] The Musician: And they said, that is absolutely not art. That’s just a frame on the wall. Like behind it you can see the wall. So it’s is is a wall art? I’m like, once you frame it, yes it is. And Frank Zappo said that, he said, you have to frame your art. You have to put a beginning and an end and frame it and then give it to the consumer, uh, or the, the listener or the.
[00:29:26] The Musician: Whoever it is. He didn’t say consumer, he said listener, but he, he was sort of warning musicians like, you can’t do this freeform nonsense. You have to start somewhere end somewhere clearly frame your art and then give it to the people. And so I would argue that you put a frame on the wall and that’s art and it’ll always be unique ’cause it’s a different wall, it’s a different something.
[00:29:48] The Musician: There’s something going on.
[00:29:50] The Writer: And what maybe the person that you were talking with saw was the wall. But what if when you were looking at it, you saw a picture of [00:30:00] me and you together and we were smiling and happy and but it was in your imagination. Isn’t that just as real?
[00:30:09] The Musician: Uh, some artists could go up and draw a circle, and now it’s a circle inside of a frame and it’s interactive art, a fly lands on it.
[00:30:16] The Musician: That’s real time art. It’s,
[00:30:19] The Writer: yeah. Yeah. Real time art. I,
[00:30:22] The Musician: I can’t. I can’t help but be on the side of “that is art” Whatever’s inside the frame is art. Um, and there’s a beauty to that I think. ’cause there’s a freedom. Instead of thinking that artists have to follow rules, I don’t think there are rules. And once you give an artist rules, they’ll find a way to break them.
[00:30:45] The Writer: Oh yeah
[00:30:45] The Musician: That’s the, the nature of the imagination We. We can’t help but the minute that we’ve, it’s part
[00:30:51] The Writer: of destroying Right,
[00:30:53] The Musician: right.
[00:30:53] The Writer: And ending. Yes.
[00:30:55] The Musician: That, um, another quote, I don’t know who said it, [00:31:00] that while scientists are busy creating better mouse traps, nature is busy creating better mice, nature will find a way.
[00:31:14] The Musician: Or even then, like we’re saying, artists will find a way.
[00:31:16] The Writer: Yeah,
[00:31:17] The Musician: I think the moment you give artists rules, they’ll find a way to break them and that pushes art. Like, uh,
[00:31:23] The Writer: I support it
[00:31:25] The Musician: say in Project Runway. They’ll always like talking about pushing the edges and, and pushing them,
[00:31:32] The Writer: going further, going further, not
[00:31:33] The Musician: just doing the same outfits, the same techniques, the same everything when they see something pushing.
[00:31:39] The Musician: Challenge fashion Challenge.
[00:31:40] The Writer: Challenge yourself. Challenge your own mind.
[00:31:43] The Musician: Even challenging the, the audience.
[00:31:47] The Writer: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:47] The Musician: And their imagination. Yes. Like I was trying to challenge that person to accepting that the frame creates the art, like framing the art really helps you. [00:32:00]
[00:32:00] The Writer: Did they ever see it different?
[00:32:01] The Musician: No. No.
[00:32:04] The Musician: They were really, really adamant that It’s a cop out for an artist to just put a frame on the wall and frame nothing. Or then they started talking about how these people do these pieces that are just black, you know, and just canvas painted black, throw it on the wall and call it art
[00:32:22] The Writer: and sell it for $4,000,
[00:32:27] The Musician: whatever someone’s willing to pay.
[00:32:30] The Musician: The Banksy. Yeah. Uh, Banksy did a perfect piece. He created a frame that had a shredder built into the bottom of it. Nobody knew. Put the art in there. And left it for years, and it’s one of his famous pieces. And people were buying, you know, uh, auctioning millions and millions. And I forget what it sold for.
[00:32:53] The Musician: 2 million or, I, I don’t know. I’d have to look it up. It’s so much. I’d have to look up how much it sold for, but it’s definitely over a million dollars. And [00:33:00] I, I believe it was two or a lot, even more. A lot. It’s like ridiculous. Like, whoa, I can’t believe that sold for that much money moment. It’s sold. That person click, you know, okay.
[00:33:12] The Musician: Sold to that person. Banksy flipped the switch and the the piece shredded through the bottom of the frame, my God. And there’s destruction. That’s your destruction folks. So create all the art that you’re creating, but sometimes you have to destroy some things to really, to create more, create more art,
[00:33:37] The Writer: or enjoy the silence of nothing there.
[00:33:41] The Musician: If this were a proper radio show, I would outro with Enjoy the Silence by Depeche mode and bid you a wonderful day.
[00:33:50] The Writer: Cheers,
[00:33:51] The Musician: make good art.
[00:33:52] The Writer: We love you.
[00:33:54] The Musician: [00:34:00] Cheers.